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Fret Wimp! http://www-.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10102&t=11252	Page 1 of 1

Author:	Jim Kirby [ Mon Mar 12, 2007 4:34 am ]
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I'm closing up the boxes for two flamenco guitars, and have my 650mm scale frets sawn. Now I'm contemplating hammering in frets over the fingerboard extension, and I'm scared! The process went OK on the classical that I recently posted, but these things are so light, I'm just afraid it can't be done. At the same time, I can't see how to do any frets before gluing on the fingerboard, as it would then be hard to do final leveling and relieving on the bass side. How do all you flamenco builders deal with this? Grit your teeth and forge ahead? Anyone out there who glues in the frets in wider slots without much hammering? I've also looked at pressing them, but the Stew-Mac contraption (Jaws 2?) doesn't like the classical-sized soundhole. It's a tight fit to get it in in the first place, and once there the clamping arms are too long compared to the soundhole diameter - you can't get the arbor centered over the 18th or 19th frets. (I used a pair of vise-grips on the 19th fret last time, but c-clamps would work too.) Jim

Author:	old man [ Mon Mar 12, 2007 4:48 am ]
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I press all my frets in after the FB is glued to the neck, but before the neck is installed. Use the extension support that Cumpiano shows in his book and the StewMac caul mounted in my drill press. If the neck is right and the FB levelled before fretting, there is minimal levelling to do afterwards. Course I use a m/t bolt on neck. Ron

Author:	Jim Kirby [ Mon Mar 12, 2007 5:22 am ]
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Ron - Thanks. Spanish heel here - no opportunity to fret neck before attaching to body. Jim

Author:	crazymanmichael [ Mon Mar 12, 2007 5:37 am ]
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never built a flamenco, but have had no problems hammering in the frets on my classical builds, as well as i don't know how many refrets to both. you need a small bag of shot to hold firmly on the underside of the top under the fingerboard extension to absorb the shock. when i first started i din't have any shot so used a bag of sand. or you could buy a taylor fret buck!!! and make sure you bevel the fret slot to help guide the fret tang cleanly into the slot. remember that tapping the frets in is a more appropriate description than hammering them in. be gentle but firm.

Author:	Daniel M [ Mon Mar 12, 2007 6:12 am ]
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I install & dress my frets after the neck is installed. If I find that the slots are a bit too tight, I widen the slots in the fingerboard extension so that I don't need to bash on them to get them seated. A little bit of white glue seems to hold them in firmly... At least no problems so far on the eight instruments I've built this way. I use a steel bucking bar wrapped in soft leather, but a bag of shot would work better. I IS a bit scary hammering away at a freshly finished guitar, but take heart... A bit of care & it'll work out just fine. To widen the slots, I use a .022" feeler guage which has a hook ground into one side near the end. Grinding the hook leaves a fine wire edge which scrapes the site of the slot, widening it quick & smooth. If you go this route, start the feeler guage hook knife at the edges of the FB & pull toward the centre. If you pull the "knife" past an edge, it can chip out the Ebony. To build a hook knife, use the corner of a bench grinder stone (or a small fine round file)to grind a 18" deep divot right at the end of the guage, leaving a sharpish point. Take multiple light passes until the knife works its way to the bottom of the fret slot. Don't forget to use a fine triangular file to bevel the top of the slots. Hope this helps! Dan

Author:	Daniel M [ Mon Mar 12, 2007 6:16 am ]
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Sorry! 18" in the above note should read 1/8"... but you probly already figgered that out!

Author:	Jim Kirby [ Mon Mar 12, 2007 6:43 am ]
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Dan and Michael - thanks for those tips. It also occurs to me that, despite the thinness of the top, the area being tapped (not hammered ) on is supported about as well by the upper transverse brace as it is on the regular classical. The transmission of impact from the fretboard, through that brace, to the dead weight is about the same. I'll proceed as before (maybe with a little of Dan's slot widening). But I have to say, the two steel strings that I've done before feel like tanks now compared to these ongoing builds - even the recently finished classical almost feels that way.

Author:	Dave-SKG [ Mon Mar 12, 2007 9:16 am ]
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Would a Taylor fret buck work with a Spanish heal? I don't know but if so that's one solution. The other would be the NEW Stewmac Jaws III. I bought one, haven't tried it but the principal is good. Also, why not widen the slots a little so you don't need as much force. Apply some medium CA, clamp down the frets and you are good to go.

Author:	Martin Turner [ Mon Mar 12, 2007 7:49 pm ]
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I hold a large bag of leadshot under the area Im fretting and just whack those jolly old frets in with a hammer. haven't had any problems yet. The bag of leadshot is also excellent if your workshop is every overun by terrorists...you just let 'em have it with the bag

Author:	Jim Kirby [ Mon Mar 12, 2007 11:05 pm ]
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[QUOTE=kiwigeo] I hold a large bag of leadshot under the area Im fretting and just whack those jolly old frets in with a hammer. haven't had any problems yet. The bag of leadshot is also excellent if your workshop is every overun by terrorists...you just let 'em have it with the bag [/QUOTE] If you can lift it off the floor! I have a whole 25lb bag for my main shock absorber for the neck, and I have used a smaller deadweight bag under the fingerboard extension for every guitar so far, and it does work, yes indeed. It's just that those gossamer-like flamenco tops were putting the fear in me. Onward and upward!

Author:	crazymanmichael [ Mon Mar 12, 2007 11:10 pm ]
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my comment re the fret buck was whimsical, but on a serious note i think my concern about its suitability would be the size of the sound hole, not the spanish heel.

Author:	Colby Horton [ Tue Mar 13, 2007 12:01 am ]
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I just finished a classical a few weeks ago. I think I used my fret buck to hammer the frets over the body.

Author:	crazymanmichael [ Tue Mar 13, 2007 1:03 am ]
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colby, what was the diameter of your soundhole? since i first saw one in use 8 or 9 years ago i have often thought of getting a fretbuck but didn't feel a strong enough pull to let go of my $225-$250 or so since the small shot bag has always worked well for me. but arthur and his itis compounded by a history of broken bones are making the contortions of the hands and wrist more uncomfortable with the passing years and i have been feeling that pull on my wallet again.

Author:	Ray Pepalis [ Tue Mar 13, 2007 9:01 am ]
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I am a first time builder who has not yet gotten to the fretting operation. I see all the concerns related to installing the frets over the "box". Is there a good reason why one would not simply install the 13th thru 19th frets in the fretboard before gluing the fretboard to the neck? Ray

Author:	Jim Kirby [ Tue Mar 13, 2007 12:07 pm ]
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Despite what Hesh says, I want to be able to level my fretboard after it's attached, plus the additional chore of relieving the bass side of the fretboard on a classical which isn't an issue on steel-strings. This last step creeps over the divide from "matter of choice" to "fairly necessary". However, even on a steel string, I want to level the board after its installed not only on the neck but on the body as well. Different strokes. On the other hand, if someday I can get my guitars to look like Hesh's, there will be a source of joy. I use epoxy like Steve the Texan! But pre-frets. Honestly, Hesh, how do you know your boards are level if the frets are done beforehand? Trust a straightedge over the neck and body? (Heh, this may be fine, I'm a rank amateur.) JK

Author:	Jim Kirby [ Tue Mar 13, 2007 12:10 pm ]
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[QUOTE=crazymanmichael] colby, what was the diameter of your soundhole? since i first saw one in use 8 or 9 years ago i have often thought of getting a fretbuck but didn't feel a strong enough pull to let go of my $225-$250 or so since the small shot bag has always worked well for me. but arthur and his itis compounded by a history of broken bones are making the contortions of the hands and wrist more uncomfortable with the passing years and i have been feeling that pull on my wallet again.[/QUOTE] Wasn't there recently a description of a homemade fret buck around here somewhere, or on MIMF? That could possible be altered to go through a classical soundhole. Let me know if you remember seeing it. (I do, just can't remember where.)

Author:	crazymanmichael [ Tue Mar 13, 2007 12:18 pm ]
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i've often thought too of building one. thst to may be in the offing if i can get anywhere near the end of my "to build" list. ah, good intentions.... and i haven't seen the thread you mention. i would like to have a look at it as well.

Author:	crazymanmichael [ Tue Mar 13, 2007 12:32 pm ]
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this is one of those topics about which you will see endless discussion. there are pros and cons to each method. because i learned to fret in a repair setting i have always preferred to use the hammer to tap them in, and working over the box has never bothered me. i guesss when i started i was too ignorant and by the time i learned there were risks they didn't bother me. i too prefer to do the final dress on the board after it is on the guitar, and then install the frets, because to me this is the easyest way to avoid the body joint hump in the neck. you will hear no end of dissent from those that prefer to fret first then install. in the end it is a decision about what you feel most confident will give you the result you are looking for. an abundance of wonderful instruments have been built using both techniques.

Author:	Colby Horton [ Tue Mar 13, 2007 11:49 pm ]
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Michael The diameter of the soundhole was 3 1/2". The fret buck probably doesn't work perfectly on a classical. But since I already have it I go ahead and use it.

Author:	Dave-SKG [ Wed Mar 14, 2007 5:28 am ]
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Hi Terry, I have it(jaws-3). Just haven't used it yet. It looks like it will work well. I usually widen the slots a little anyway ( over the body). This device will just be yet another way to keep the frets down while the ca sets. I always buy stewmacs latest jigs/tools. They may not be used everytime but i have found that there is always that "one" time i say "darn it I should have bought that tool and now they don't make/sell it anymore". That happened to me with the Floyd Rose Neck/Nut end routing jig they used to sell...can't get it anymore. i know Dan probably has a whole box of them hidden somewhere but he's not talking

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